The Second Circle Series 4: BAD SEX
Episode 4: When your body doesn't feel sexy
Faulty penises, unruly pubes, and unexplained pain: When our bodies don’t look or work the way they’re “supposed” to, it can feel like a real barrier to good sex. So what can we do about it? Do we push on through anyway? Seek treatment? Or adjust our expectations? As usual, there’s no single answer.
The Second Circle is produced, written, hosted by Franki Cookney | Editor: Lucy Douglas | Audio production: Anouszka Tate |
Theme music: Roof / Big Spoon (Instrumental Version) | Incidental music: _91Nova - Moiety, Tilden Parc - Wanna Know | All music courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com
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S04E04: When your body doesn't feel sexy
Rebecca 00:00
Sex wasn't enjoyable. So we weren't thinking about how we could make it enjoyable. Because there was no physical way we could, in some ways, it was a, let's do this quite as quickly as we can. Let's do this in a way that's least painful for me.
And I think there were so many times that I really should have said, No, I can't stand it. But I felt the pressure to carry on. And it it basically just felt extremely painful, extremely sore. And the soreness. You know, it felt like sandpaper.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 00:35
Oof. There aren’t many occasions where I would dictate what sex should and shouldn’t be but I’m going to stick my neck out here: sex should not feel like sandpaper. Sex that hurts so much you just want to get it over as fast as possible is BAD SEX.
But experiences like this are not actually all that unusual. Data from the National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles (NATSAL 3) shows around half of people in the UK report some type of sexual problem. These include things like pain during sex, struggle to reach orgasm, trouble achieving or maintaining erections, and vaginal dryness.
This is a huge percentage of the population. In fact, this stat was one of the things that inspired this series. When our bodies don’t look or work the way they’re supposed to, it can feel like a real barrier to good sex. So what can we do about it? Do we push on through anyway. Seek treatment. Adjust our expectations.
As usual in this series, there’s no single answer. But if you’re up for having the discussion then friends, you’ve come to the right place.
[THEME MUSIC]
Franki Cookney [voiceover]
You’re listening to The Second Circle. This is Series 4: BAD SEX.
I’m Franki Cookney. I’ve spent many years writing and reporting on sex and relationships and each time I read a piece on how to make sex better, how to improve, how to spice things up, I get the increasing sense that maybe we’re coming at this from the wrong angle. In this series I’m turning sex advice on its head and exploring what makes sex bad in the first place.
The stories you’ll hear and the language people use to describe their sexual experiences can be pretty explicit so listener discretion is advised. All the sex we discuss in this series was consensual but it wasn’t always enjoyable and some accounts may be distressing.
So far, we’ve looked at how culture shapes attitudes around sex. We’ve examined the notion of “sex positivity” and talked about sexual expectations. In the last episode we discussed pleasure, what stops us experiencing it, and how to start to tap into what pleasure really means for us. Now, I want to hear from people whose bodies don’t fit the mould when it comes to sex, who have to overcome physical or psychological barriers, or have to reimagine sex completely.
We’re going to be talking faulty penises, unruly pubes, and unexplained pain. In the second half of the show we’ll be talking to people about the side effects of medication, sex with disability, and how society makes us feel insecure about our bodies. So stay tuned for all that.
In the introduction I mentioned that around half of people in the UK report some type of sexual problem. One of these is painful sex, which was reported by one in thirteen women in the NATSAL survey.
Now, painful sex is a pretty broad term. It can be caused by a lot of different things. We talked about vaginismus in the last episode, for example. Another condition that can make sex painful is vulvodynia which is chronic pain of the vulva, the area around the vagina.
Living with a condition like this can be devastating for your sex life as my next interviewee Rebecca can confirm. Rebecca is not her real name. She agreed to share her story on condition of anonymity.
Rebecca 04:38
It started in 2010. And I just, I'd had a really, really bad year, like a stressful year, it's been really stressful. And in the January, I came down with a really nasty thrush infection. So as you do, I got treated, but it didn't go away. I ended up going to the GP a few times and after a couple of rounds of treatment, she was telling me Well, the swabs are all coming back clear. There's nothing there. But I was still feeling really, really uncomfortable. She didn't know what it was. I didn't know what it was. And we started like a whole process of like, we'll have to investigate this, we'll have to investigate that. I went to the GUM clinic. I think I had like nine different pelvic exams that year. And it took about six months before I actually saw the person who, who understood what was going on and was able to diagnose me with the condition. And yeah, it was a really stressful six months, really stressful. I had no idea, you know, what was wrong with me. I was terrified it was serious. And I think because it was such a difficult thing for me to talk about, you know, it was really hard for me to explain to anyone else in my life what was happening and why I was really struggling. And I, you know, I remember, I really vividly remember going at one point to church, which you can imagine like I was quite visible because people knew me really well. And I just remember thinking, I can't sit on a chair, because I wasn't able to sit down a lot of the time because that was really uncomfortable. I wasn't able to wear jeans. And remember sitting down at the back on the floor, because that was more comfortable for me. And people being like, ‘what on earth are you doing?’ and not being able to explain, Actually, I'm in so much pain, I can't sit down. Because it just wasn't, like, socially acceptable to say, Actually, my vulva hurts. I can't sit on a chair.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 06:27
Studies of vulvodynia have found that roughly 7–10% of women have experienced some type of chronic vulva pain in their lifetimes. But, of course, the real number may be higher. There is so much stigma attached to sexual problems and many people, particularly women and LGBTQ people, do not trust medics to understand or take their problems seriously.
This is partly down to the disparity in the way women are treated - there is so much research documenting gender bias in healthcare that it would take a whole episode to go through it. But it is partly rooted in the fact that, actually, a lot of sexual dysfunctions aren’t very well understood. I mean, the NHS website literally describes vulvodynia as “unexplained pain in the vulva”.
Vulva pain can be caused by a number of things: skin conditions such as lichen sclerosis, pelvic nerve entrapment, or even vaginismus. To put it simply, vulvodynia is the diagnosis given when all of the other options have been ruled out.
Rebecca 07:34
I mean, my GP was lovely. She was ever so sympathetic, but she didn't know what was happening. She was sort of just sitting there saying I'm so sorry, I don't know what's happening. I don't know why this is happening for you. I was I was really, really lucky, in that I happen to live in an area very close to one of the leading specialists in the UK. So when I did go and get treated at the GUM clinic, they knew, once they'd ruled out everything else that might be causing the pain, they knew to refer me straight to her. So I was super lucky. And it could have taken longer to get diagnosed.
I think in the very initial stages, I really did confuse it with thrush, I thought it was thrush. So there was an itchiness and there was a burning soreness. And as it went on, it was more about the burning soreness than it was anything else. And that would be constant, like there was a constant feeling of it being sore and uncomfortable. But on touch was much, much worse, and felt, I guess, like a bit like fire. And just, you know, just like, Oh, really, really awful. And there were days, I just used to lay on my bed with my legs like spread eagle to try and make sure there was a little touch as possible. And, and just, you know, feel like I wanted to rip it all out. You know, that sense of it just being intolerable to bear. I just couldn't cope. It was awful.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 08:51
Given how much pain she was in, I think most of us could understand if Rebecca had decided to call it quits on sex altogether. But at the same time, she felt a strong sense of injustice. Why the hell should she give up on sex? She liked sex, she wanted to enjoy it. It felt so unfair. Surely there was a way around this.
But there was another problem. Rebecca and her husband were trying to get pregnant.
Rebecca 09:18
Sometimes we would try thinking it might be okay. And then we'd quickly realise it was not going to be okay. But because we were trying for a baby, we carried on. And I think there were so many times that I really should have said, No, I can't stand it. But I felt the pressure to carry on. And it basically just felt extremely painful, extremely sore. And the soreness. You know, it felt like sandpaper. And it would then be sore for a while afterwards. So it was a huge cost in it, I think, for me. And for my husband, because he had to see it happening. And he hated that. And so I think he would then avoid it. Because he didn't want to hurt me. And then that sets up patterns, which can continue even after the pain, you know, there's a there's a fear of hurting me, even to this day, there are occasionally moments where there's a fear of hurting me or a fear of being hurt. Which, yeah, it's it's difficult.
Franki Cookney 10:21
If you hadn't been trying for a baby at that time. What do you think sex would have ideally, involved for you?
Rebecca 10:30
I think I think there would have been more of a sense of freedom for us in choosing how we had sex and when we had sex and the way we would kind of communicate about sex, all of those things would have been very different.
Sex wasn't enjoyable. So we weren't thinking about how we could make it enjoyable. Because there was no physical way we could. In some ways, it was a, let's do this as quickly as we can. Let's do this in a way that's least painful for me.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 10:57
Rebecca was reasonably lucky. She was 28 when she first went to the doctor and was able to get a diagnosis fairly swiftly. She was prescribed an antidepressant. This is a pretty common treatment for neuropathic pain (that’s nerve pain), my husband actually takes a low dose of amitriptyline for back pain. While they weren’t developed for the treatment of pain, there is a wealth of evidence showing that they are effective at reducing it, although it can take several months to feel the effects.
People can take this medication for years but in Rebecca’s case, two years after the onset of her symptoms, she got pregnant. She stopped taking the meds and happily her symptoms did not come back. But here’s the thing, neither she nor her doctor know exactly why. Just another “unexplained” aspect of this particular condition.
Rebecca 11:53
I think it took maybe sort of six months or so to start feeling better. And that was just the start. But perhaps a full two years before I felt like it was manageable, completely manageable. And so I was kind of reducing the meds and actually surprised to find that the pain didn't come back. And I was very lucky, really. Since then, I haven't had a kind of full relapse of any kind. I haven't ever had, Oh, it’s definitely back and it's properly back. And every now and then I do get sore, I think it's linked in with hormones. So certain times of my period, perhaps I'm more likely to be a little bit sore, but it's not. It's not too bad. It's not uncomfortable. I kind of I can manage it,
Franki Cookney 12:37
Do you think it's changed the way you approach sex?
Rebecca 12:42
Yes, in the sense that it's a lot more prep. A thought that has to go into it. But a lot of that's automatic now, and not not so much. Kind of, I don't think about it too much. But I certainly wouldn't be able to have sex so easily. You know, I've been thinking lately about what would be like… what would it be like to date with this? Not having vulvodynia but now, post-vulvodynia, when actually it would be, it would be have to be a lot more conversation around kind of my experiences with a potential partner because they'd need to know a lot of stuff, they need to know that I can't use this lube or that lube, they need to know, you know that there are certain things that we need to be aware of that perhaps I can't do. And I think I'd want anyone else to know that because it's important, it's really important for for my comfort level and my experience.
Franki Cookney 13:33
Is that, is that necessarily a bad thing that there's a lot more conversation has to go into it?
Rebecca 13:37
I don't think it's a bad thing, that there's conversation that goes into to anything, anytime you might want to have sex with someone. I think that that that communication is key. But it's perhaps a bit more off-putting for a potential partner to have to think, well, I need to now consider all these things before… I can't just jump someone, I have to actually be ready to think about how I can make sure you know, it goes well, as opposed to you know, have the little bit of freedom that perhaps but then I wonder how many people have that kind of freedom, actually, in reality. That there are probably lots of people who don't.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 14:04
Rebecca’s right. How many of us really do fit into this category of being totally carefree, unencumbered by bodily concerns or functions? Think about Ella in episode one, who has to talk to all her new partners about her herpes status. Or Daniel who we heard from in episode two. As a trans man, conversations about how exactly he wants and doesn’t want to be touched and how he refers to parts of his body, are a precursor to any sexual interaction. And L, who had to get super comfortable explaining to partners exactly what she needs to experience pleasure and orgasm and learn how to relax into that herself.
Our bodies are unique, and there’s no universal manual for how they work or what they find pleasurable (or indeed painful). So this idealised view of “simply jumping someone” is… actually kind of a myth. Really, we ALL ought to be considering what we need to do and talk about to make sure it goes well.
There’s no doubt what Rebecca has been through is incredibly distressing and it’s completely understandable that she would feel upset at not being able to have sex the way she and her partner wanted to, particularly given they were trying to get pregnant. I really don’t want to diminish that in any way but, I do wonder whether, had Rebecca and her husband been able to take the focus off penetrative sex, whether they might have had a nicer time. Sexual activity is acknowledged to be a triggering factor for many and something which can exacerbate the pain of vulvodynia but conversely, a lot of experts don’t recommend avoiding sex. One theory is that avoiding sex could increase the tension in the vaginal muscles which could make the pain worse but I’m also reminded of Fran, in our last episode, who basically said she was going into every sexual encounter tense because she was expecting pain. For her, trying to make sex happen only served to make the whole thing more stressful and consequently more painful.
The NHS website also suggests using a topical anaesthetic 20 minutes before sex “to make it more comfortable” and while I know lots of people are going to want to try anything they can I just… the idea of numbing yourself so you can have sex is just… I’m sorry, I’m really struggling with that. Slap on some gel and grit your teeth… where is the intimacy, where is the pleasure in that? It just sounds to me like the most perfect recipe for bad sex and I… I can’t get my head around it.
I wanted to get an expert insight so I called up psychosexual therapist Kate Moyle. In her line of work, it’s not uncommon to see clients presenting with pain during sex. Sometimes the reason is quite straightforward. People experience pain during sex due to pregnancy, childbirth, injury (she specifically mentioned cycling injuries), urinary tract infections. For people with penises, a common one is phimosis, where the foreskin is too tight and so erections can hurt. But in cases where there isn’t an obvious physical reason, there remains limited understanding. The research simply isn’t there, she told me. It hasn’t been done.
I asked Kate about the NHS’ advice to keep having sex and what the rationale behind that might be.
Kate Moyle 17:40
I think that I don't actually know why why the guidance is to continue, I imagine it's because it's about getting people to try and not avoid. So it's that it's that kind of pushing through model. It's not what I recommend to my clients, at least immediately, because what I want people to do is not be repeating the same thing that's not working for them time and time again, because maybe it's a bit logical, a bit basic. But if we're not doing anything different, we're not introducing anything different than how can we expect a different result.
So it kind of doesn't make any sense that the same input would create a different output. And so often, I talk to people about how we can work creatively with it. Is it that actually, couples still want to have intimacy and connection and time together, but they can't do one part of sex? And so it's saying to those couples, okay, but what can you do, which isn't painful? Now, one of the things that comes up for me a lot when I'm talking to people is that as a result of intercourse being a problem, they pull away from all other forms of sexual contact, because of that anxiety thing, that protection thing. Why would we move towards something that we think is going to cause us pain and discomfort. And so we see this pulling back from being naked in bed together, or going to bed at the same time, or touching each other. And a lot of people say, it's because if my partner cuddles up to me, I think this is going to lead to sex and I don't want to have sex because it hurts. So I don't want to lead them on, so actually I don't even go there. That's the point at which I see actually a lot of couples coming to therapy because all of the intimacy and physical connection the desire, has, that's the bit that's struggling, both partners are making their own assumptions stuck in their heads. So in psychosexual therapy, we would work creatively to work out what they can do. And then we try and do things differently. We try and work out what does work.
There are also medical interventions, that some people have tried, some medications, local anaesthetics, things like that. People have even had Botox on their genitals, which sounds slightly terrifying to me, but if that's, you know, what works for you. But for me, we have to open up the definition of sex first, and then say, okay, so how can we work with this in a way which is comfortable for everyone who's involved? Because also if we can reduce anxiety, what it might be is helping people to take baby steps towards what was previously really problematic and scary and by habituating and getting people used to sensations and used to where they're at and used to the stage they're at, they can gradually make changes. But for me, the kind of, you know, grit your teeth and bear it and push through model, it doesn't work, because it's just reinforcing and confirming what that person feels, which is that this is bad for me this hurts this is this is causing me distress.
Franki Cookney 20:51
I'm really glad you mentioned the anaesthetic gel. I find that so difficult as an idea. I just, you know, every part of me was sort of screaming, no, that's horrendous, like, the idea that you have to put something on yourself so that you can continue to do this thing. Like, there's no option to not do it. But I would love your perspective, because maybe I'm reading too much into this, maybe there's some nuance that I've missed here.
Kate Moyle 21:20
I think, you know, anything like that has to be used under medical guidance, if you're going to use it. And the thing I'd say to people is, please, please do not self medicate, or buy anything that's not prescription or anything like that. Because we know that people get desperate in these kind of situations. And I can completely understand why. But please, don't kind of take matters into your own hands. Those kind of products have to be used under medical guidance, if that's the route that you choose to go down. I mean, for me, my job is about helping people to make informed choices and informed decisions. And if that's what they want to do for them, then that is their choice. But we also see that those kind of numbing gels, for example, they can transfer to partners. So partners also can't really feel what's going on either. And I think the more important thing is, how can you create pleasure for each other in a way which is helping you to connect and enjoy yourselves rather than numbing one part of your body in order that you just have to push through.
FrankiCookney 22:27
I like what you've said about the fact that you want to help people have the kind of sex they want. And if having penis and vagina sex is really important to some couples, we don't want to be telling them when you should just forget about that. But is, is there an extent to which thinking a little bit outside the box about it could help people in situations like this?
Kate Moyle 22:47
Massively. For me, I think helping people to redefine sex is probably one of the biggest pillars of my job. it's basically because the majority of us have been taught pretty limitedly. It's also quite a success or failure, goal-orientated model is also incredibly heteronormative and ableist and so we've got all these problems with this definition. And so when we can open it up, we can make sex work for us, in whatever way we want it to. And really, the only thing that matters is that it works in whatever works, but actually is fun and pleasurable and consensual for the people doing it.
And I think so often when it comes to sex, actually, what we're doing is comparing ourselves to what we think we should be doing. And that's where so many sexual problems and difficulties come from.
And I think we can adapt, you know, we see every other area of our lives, we tend to adapt or at least be open to adapting. But when it comes to sex, and relationships, for some reason, we're like, Nope, it should be the same, always consistent forever. And everything else changes. So why wouldn't that change? And I think it's, it's largely to do with this attitude and kind of culture we have around sex, which is, don't ask, don't talk about it. Don't question. It should stay the same. Be in control. Okay? If not, there's a problem with you. Because this is where everyone else is doing. Even that's just not the case. I just can't, I can't say enough. And I think that if we then feel open to adapting and moving with, and we see that we go through different life phases and stages, then that's the first step to being like, okay, I can take control over this, I can be in charge of my sex life, I can do something differently. And that should be empowering for people rather than, than feeling limited and stuck.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 24:42
I said it at the end of the last episode and I’m going to say it again now: There are no rules! As Kate says, this should be a hugely positive and empowering realisation. And pleasure, as we discussed last week, comes in so many different forms and via so many different sensations, many of which have nothing at all to do with our genitals.
At the start of this show I told you about the NATSAL statistics which show that about half the British population says they struggle with some sort of sexual problem. These include issues with desire, with arousal, with orgasm, as well as general levels of enjoyment. Which, on the face of it sound pretty dysfunctional, right? We know that sex involves desire, arousal, orgasm and I think we mostly agree that it’s supposed to be fun. But here’s the thing: These sexual dysfunction categories were born out of a model of how human sex “should” work. This model - known as the human sexual response cycle - was originally developed by Masters and Johnson – remember them? They also came up with sensate focus which we talked about in the last episode. The model dictated that sex should go as follows: excitement, plateau, orgasm, and resolution.
In the 70s, another sexologist Helen Kaplan revised their model so it went: desire, arousal, and orgasm. This became the blueprint for diagnosing sexual dysfunctions and disorders.
The problem with that is that it automatically puts anyone who doesn’t follow this linear progression into the Sexual Dysfunction box.
As Meg-John Barker points out in their book, Sexuality: A Graphic Guide, in many cases, they might be absolutely fine if they were able to do different things, in different orders, at their own pace.
So, what happens when we let go of what we think bodies “should” do during sex and how they should work, and find new ways of experiencing sex?
We’re going to take a quick break now but don’t go anywhere because in a minute we’re going to hear from someone who did exactly that.
[AD BREAK]
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 26:54
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Franki Cookney [voiceover] 27:21
This episode of The Second Circle is also sponsored by The Pleasure Garden
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Every order is shipped in discreet packaging and UK postage is free when you spend £50. Second Circle listeners can also get a 10% discount on any order with the offer code BADSEX. Shop now at pleasuregardenshop.co.uk
[AD BREAK ENDS]
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 28:12
Bodies don’t have to adhere to specific rules in order for us to enjoy sex. I spoke to Steve who experiences what’s officially termed “delayed ejaculation” as a side effect of his antidepressants. This isn’t rare. Researchers estimate that up to 50% of people who take SSRIs - the most widely prescribed antidepressant in the UK (for depression!) - experience sexual dysfunction, and delayed ejaculation is a particularly common complaint. What that means on an everyday basis is that, while Steve can get hard and have penetrative sex, he often won’t come. I wanted to know more about how that has affected his sex life and how he and his wife have navigated it together.
Steve 29:08
I didn't really go and get treatment for depression until I was about 38. And then when we went through it with the psychiatrist, it was clear that I'd had the symptoms since I was 28. So for 10 years, I went around pretending it was stress, all the excuses that men normally make to avoid addressing mental health, and looking for physical solutions to the problem. And then eventually, when they said, well, you're depressed, that's what's wrong with you, of course, you have the initial period of resistance. I'm not taking pills for the rest of my life stage, which you get through reasonably quickly.
So I started taking antidepressants about that age. And, and of course, it immediately had a beneficial effect on the depression. So it was rather a proven cause. So initially, I didn't notice any big effect on sex life, and that was reasonably young then. But you could, you could feel a little bit of an interference at the age of 38 to 40, that sort of age. But there's the older I got, the more the effect took hold. My libido wasn't particularly suppressed. And I didn't have any problem with erectile dysfunction. But I noticed that, you know, every other time when I was making love with my wife, I wasn't finishing.
So I went back to the doctor and told him about this. And he said, Oh, that's not very good. So there's this new one that's come out. Now, it's supposed to have lower side effects. So I think I changed twice, on that basis, looking for one with a with a lesser side effect. But in fact, it got gradually worse, so that me ejaculating during sex was very, very rare. And, of course, I was starting to get a bit perturbed about it. And my wife was as well, because she was thinking, does this reflect on me? Does it reflect on our relationship? You know, is there something going wrong? Or is this really all just the pills? So, you know, I felt like, even though it's not always easy to talk about sex, we had to discuss this.
And I said, I don't think it's anything to do with us. I mean, we're, you know, we actually met when we were 18. So we've now been together nearly 42 years. So, you know, the cynics might argue that we're bound to have gone off each other a little bit. But in reality, we haven't really we still seem to fancy each other just as much as before. So I said, I'm sure it's not that, you know, because I still get the urge to make love to you. So, you know, I think the key thing is to is to stop worrying about it to stop making it so goal-oriented, you know, because I mean, there's plenty of other parts to sex that are nice.
I listened to you and Rob discussing this on one of your old episodes of the day is the orgasm actually the best part of sex. And in many ways, it's not I mean, it's the end part, but it's not necessarily the best part.
But we, we experimented a little bit by going to tantric massage and things because we lived in Luxembourg. And just over the border in Germany, you have a choices four or five cities, which which offer this and the Germans have this lovely, matter of fact way about it, they just treat it like a health treatment.
And, and they said, you know that a lot of people who practise tantric sex, actually avoid orgasm, because they feel that they lose the energy or something like that. And they have a perfectly nice time without it. And so we thought, Well, what, we're not unique, this is actually quite a good way of doing things. We learned some new techniques between us to make the build up longer and more proficient if you like. And generally, we came to a point where we were enjoying it as much as before, so why worry about?
I mean, I, if you explained to other people, what my sex life is now. A lot of men in particular would say, ‘Oh, dear, that's awful. You know, have you tried sleeping with someone else?’ But what is it, it's not awful we do it, we enjoy it and I suspect we have sex a lot more than some couples, particularly those who have kids and are too tired to have sex.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 33:12
Can confirm! And yep, we’ll be coming back to the impact of having kids on your sex life in the next episode.
What I really like about Steve’s story is that it shows there are so many different ways to have sex. Actually if you're having bad sex by trying to fit in with one version, maybe the answer is to think outside the box a bit.
In case you’re interested, the podcast episode Steve mentioned is from Series Two. It’s called Orgasm Quota and if you listened to earlier series of the The Second Circle you’ll know it started out as just me and my husband Rob, sitting at the kitchen table talking about the sex-related news stories of the week and picking apart some of the faulty ideas we found in them. As the podcast has evolved I’ve ditched Rob (as a podcast host, you understand, our marriage is fine) but my drive to interrogate the accepted norms about sex has stayed.
Bodies not working how we’re told they should might mean we have to adapt our expectations and understanding of what sex is (and to be honest, we should all do that anyway, regardless of how our bodies work) but it does not mean the people in those bodies don’t deserve to have pleasurable sex.
Happily there are are a lot more examples of people speaking out about this. Disabled sex worker Eve Adler talked openly about her experiences in episode one of Series 3 of The Second Circle. Journalist Hollie Ann Brooks has written extensively on disabled sexuality and Andrew Gurza is a disability consultant and founder of Handi, a new sex toy currently in development, designed for people with hand dexterity and mobility issues.
Meanwhile, Sex with Cancer is a public campaign to acknowledge the impact cancer can have on people’s sex lives and explore how people living with cancer can retain agency when it comes to their health and sexual wellbeing.
Having a body that doesn’t fit the narrative does not mean you have to resign yourself to bad sex.
Hannah Witton is a sex educator and YouTuber who makes content about sexual health, relationships, hormones, periods, fertility and loads of other great stuff. She has a podcast about sex and relationships called Doing It and she also has ulcerative colitis which is a bowel disease. In 2018 she had surgery to remove her large intestine. She now has a stoma which is essentially a hole in the side of her tummy to which she attaches a colostomy bag. As she wrote on her Instagram shortly after surgery “I poo in a bag now!”
I’ve known Hannah for a little while now, through our work and shared interest in sex and relationships. My observation of her over the years is that she manages to talk about her body and the challenges she faces honestly but optimistically. I asked her how she managed to find that balance.
Hannah Witton 26:12
For me, being like that person on the internet who is open to talking about not just sex but like having a stoma and surgery and then like how that impacts sex as well. One, it kind of like, it feels like it's the only way I know how is to kind of talk about it. And especially with like the surgery and the stoma stuff, it was part of my personal healing journey, and it felt very cathartic to, like, get it out there. But also, when I was getting used to this new body that I had, you know, I was like in hospital post surgery, just like, Okay, I have a whole bunch of life adjustment to do now, I found so much comfort in watching videos and reading blogs from other young women with stomas. Like, I needed that. Like, it was such a lifeline for me. And so I wanted to kind of give back to that community by using my platform to talk about my experience as well, as well as it being personally a very cathartic thing to do.
So I've been making sex ed videos for years before I had my surgery and I had not once covered sex and disability. And it was only when it affected me personally, and then kind of like opening myself up to hearing the stories from other disabled people, and about their experiences with relationships and sexuality, that realise just like how much I'd missed. And unfortunately, I think it's just a symptom of society as well as just like how much we don't even consider the experiences of disabled people until it affects us personally. But the thing is, is that disability is something that will affect every single one of us, whether that is like, just the effects of like getting older eventually, or having to care for someone or like an accident.
Disability is like a status that isn't, is isn't like reserved for like some people. And then if you're able bodied, like you're able bodied forever, not the case, like, you might become disabled at some point. And so I really felt like it was important for me to then start incorporating content that includes that included disabled voices and talked about sex and disability and like, what, you know, what if your body doesn't work in the same way that the, like normative script like tells you that your body should work or the way that you should have sex?
Franki Cookney 38:43
Are there any messages about sex, that would be kind of helpful in terms of understanding that, like, obviously, you can still have a lot of fun and a lot of pleasure, even if your body doesn't fit the script. But what sorts of ideas do we need to take on in order to realise that and access that.
Hannah Witton 39:03
I think we need to let go of penis and vagina being like the holy grail of sex acts, or like what counts as real sex, I think we also absolutely need to let go of orgasm being the goal. And instead kind of open ourselves up to all sorts of kinds of pleasure. And, and maybe that means turning away from the genitals as well, like being a lot less genital obsessed as we are. And I think when we, when we look at sex through a disability lens, it really what it does, is that it actually expands our definition of sex. And so therefore, we will all just have more sex, because I think a lot of people who like have this, how do I have more sex, I want to want more sex. But actually, if you expand your definition of sex, then it's like, done. You did it, you achieved your goal of having more sex.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 40:10
I’m always so struck by Hannah’s relationship with her body. I actually don’t necessarily think that we should HAVE to always feel great about our bodies in order to have good sex (and to be honest I think constant body-positivity is a pretty unrealistic aspiration), so I admire the way she treads the line between being honest about the challenges and on the whole feeling like “well, this is the body I have and I can’t have sex without it so… let’s see what works.” I asked whether she thought that, actually, dealing with a chronic illness had made her less squeamish about discussing her bodily needs during sex.
Hannah Witton 40:42
Maybe it does, I've just been confronted by the worst bodily fluids, and, you know, things that the body could do since I was a child. And yeah, maybe that does have an impact on just like, body's going to do what a body is going to do. And you kind of have to get over the embarrassment real quick, especially in a health and medical setting. Because you need other people to look at your body and, and kind of just like, get up and close and personal with it in order to care for you.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 41:12
A body’s gonna do what a body’s gonna do. Ain’t that the truth. Young or old, able-bodied or disabled, with or without health conditions, having a human body can sometimes be a bit awkward, a bit skanky. And that’s before we even get to our physical appearance.
Like everything we’ve talked about in this series, there are a lot of scripts around what constitutes a “sexy” body. Maybe your script is telling you that sexiness means being thinner, taller, more muscular, curvier, hairier, less hairy, having a different skin tone or texture. Maybe you crave a different build altogether, a different bone structure.
In reality, none of these things have any bearing on whether we have good or bad sex but they can have a big impact on the way we feel about sex. The unreasonable expectation that we should stick to these scripts means that most of us, regardless of our age, health or ability status have felt insecure and shitty about ourselves at some point.
Someone who expresses this really well in her work is Flo Perry. Flo is an artist who makes comics about bodies, sex, gender, and life in general. She’s the author and illustrator of the graphic guide, How To Have Feminist Sex. I feel like Flo’s overall message is to aim to try and get comfy and happy in our bodies. But I like that she doesn’t shy away from the conflict of trying to do that in a world that bombards us with “shoulds”.
I wanted to talk to Flo to find out how she thinks all of that feeds into our enjoyment and experience of sex.
Flo Perry 42:57
I think basically feeling hot is very important for lots of people to feel turned on, like it's very linked to becoming aroused is feeling sexually attractive and feeling confident that the other person you with thinks that you are sexually attractive. That's like a huge part of sex for most people, I'm guessing. But like the media, the landscape and culture that we live in just shows us such a narrow view of like what an attractive body is and should look like and it's so unrealistic. And so far from what the majority of us actually have that literally, yeah, everyone can feel insecure about their bodies in some way.
One of my pet hates is like, when people are like, Oh, like, don't worry about being fat, like the guy or where he won't even care that you're fat, and it's like, wait a minute, maybe he will care that you're fat. And maybe that will be a good thing. Like, maybe actually, like, let's not pretend that like physical attraction isn't a thing, because it totally is and we all have it. But loads of people are physically attracted to cellulite, and body hair, like people with bigger bellies, people with smaller tits. All of these things, even double chins. I say that as myself, even double chins, because that's like my area that I feel self-conscious about. But you know, I'm working with this from below zoom angle, and it's all going well. And I've learned that you know, even my soft, beautiful, non-defined jawline is like some people's idea of like, sexual perfection. So yeah, basically, capitalism tells us, like, one type of body is the sexy body and that is bullshit. Is my summarization.
Franki Cookney 44:40
So how, how does this stuff impact on us when we're trying to get down and dirty with people? Can it actually sort of block people from experiencing pleasure during sex? Do you think?
Flo Perry 44:51
I think it can distract you if you're like worried that like in certain positions, that it might not be like, flattering to like, I say that like “flattering” because I think it's like a bullshit term to whatever area you feel insecure about. And because I think that like if you don't fit into this, like, ideal body shape that we're being sold, then you kind of feel like you have to compromise and you're not worthy of basically finding someone that you think is really sexually attractive.
Franki Cookney 45:20
I think we also possibly underestimate the fact that when we're attracted to people, we’re just attracted to them. Like if I'm on a date with somebody, really feeling the chemistry, and really fancying them. I'm not going to get back to their bedroom be like, Oh, woah, no, it's off. You know, just because their body doesn't look quite how I expected.
Flo Perry 45:40
Yes, stretch marks?! I'm sorry. Not what I was sold on Tinder! No one would do that. It's just like, some people are sometimes pleasantly surprised, and like, they love stretch marks. And even if you're not like specifically into stretch marks, when you grow to love someone, you become like so into all of their little quirks and their little snail trails and like, stretch marks and cellulite and hairy shoulders or whatever it is.
Franki Cookney 46:12
Your stuff on disgust is really funny. I'm just gonna, for the benefit of people who haven't read Flo's book, there's a line where Flo writes, “Logically, we shouldn't want to lick each other’s bum holes. It’s where poo comes out, after all, but lots of us do it anyway.” And it's like, yes! You know, like, one of the things we really have to get past when we have sex is the fact that human bodies do things, they make noises, and they emit smells and substances that are not always one hundred percent sexy and delicious. I wonder if you have any thoughts on that, like, how do we get over that.
Flo Perry 46:45
It’s basically like, kind of psychological miracle that like, we're somehow programmed to be like, Oh, in normal life, I am hygienic and like to, you know, wash my hands after coming anywhere near my genitals, and then you get into the bedroom, and you're, like, sit on my face! So yeah it’s a miracle.
For a lot of people, especially women, people can, they can often feel basically embarrassed. And they like have their own disgust response to their own body. And they feel like, why would you want to put your mouth on my genitals? And they feel like, they have that disgust response. And that's, like, you know, basically, I think it's important to realise that all sex is logically disgusting. And just, you know, trust that the other person who's having sex with you, or the other people who are having sex in their own way, do not find their thing disgusting, in the way that you don't find your thing that you want to do disgusting. And so actually, nothing is disgusting.
Franki Cookney 47:45
I wonder whether you think that's partly a symptom of the sort of gap between what we're told bodies are supposed to look like, you know, by society and and how they actually are. There's a pretty huge, you know, sort of trench between those two ideas, isn't there?
Flo Perry 48:03
Yeah, I think it's a really good example about this is body hair, which I have a whole chapter on in my book, because I think it's like, even though it's kind of like the kind of thing you talk about when you're thirteen like, “Oh my God, pubes!” is actually like very undiscussed I think, compared to how much time we devote to it, as women, in our lifetimes. So much time devoted to grooming and removing body hair, and it's painful and awkward and expensive.
And I think that, yeah, basically, we should do more work and realise that pretty much I think, like, in my personal experience, like 99% of women grow pubic hair outside your average pair of bikini bottoms, but you do not see a single pube outside of a bikini bottom anywhere. It's like, if you see a photograph of it, it feels like wow, fresh and like radical. When, you know, we've all seen that in the mirror trying on bikini bottoms that we've ordered online three weeks before our holiday, like, we've all seen that, but you just never ever see a photograph of it anywhere.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 49:11
And seeing photographs can actually be a really powerful way to start to combat body insecurities. One of the one of the pieces of advice Flo gives in her book is to follow a bunch of people on Instagram, who have different body types and who post pictures of their underarm hair and wobbly tummies and mastectomy scars and things. And I think that's really, really good advice. There's growing research that shows that seeing other people naked really helps with our own body image, particularly when it's in a non-sexual context. In one study, published in the Journal of Sex Research, participants were randomly assigned to one of two groups in which they interacted with other people. One group was naked and one group was clothed. They were asked to rate how they felt about their bodies before and after the experiment and guess what: the group who got naked together all felt better afterwards. So get yourself down to your nearest naturist resort!
Failing that, I really do recommend following some of the people, writers, and campaigners I’ve mentioned in this episode. Seeing and hearing people with different kinds of bodies and health statuses talk about their sexuality is a big step towards unpicking your own hangups and expectations.
[THEME MUSIC]
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 50:32
On the next episode of The Second Circle we’re going to be talking sexual desire…
Sarah 50:39
We frame it like, your relationship is a house and sex is the bathroom. And if you get rid of the bathroom, I mean, technically you can live in the house, but it will be awkward and frustrating. And you want the bathroom back at some point. Whereas I see it as more of like a conservatory. Like it's nice to have. It’s pretty you enjoy it. But if you got rid of your conservatory you still have the rest of the house, like, it'd still be a nice house.
Franki Cookney [voiceover] 51:00
Desire without sex is tough but sex without desire? Yikes. That is no fun at all. So what’s the answer? What’s stopping us feeling horny? Is it possible to boost our ailing sex drive and if so, how? Or, could we maybe just skip the sex altogether? Would that be so bad? As usual, it’s all open to discussion.
If you’re enjoying this series, or you have thoughts you want to share, I’d love to hear from you. Drop me an email at secondcirclepodcast@gmail.com or send me a voicenote, come on! Don’t let me do all the talking. Go to speakpipe.com/TheSecondCircle to record one now.
Please go ahead and smash that subscribe button And don’t forget to leave a review, it helps boost visibility. I’ll see you back here next time for more BAD SEX.
The Second Circle is produced and hosted by me, Franki Cookney. My audio producer for this series was Anouszka Tate. My editors on this episode were Lucy Douglas and Rob Davies.
I could not have made this series without the incredible support of those who donated to my crowdfunder. Thank you to all of you. In particular I’d like to thank Rochelle Dancel, Rachel Wheeley, Christine Woolgar, Anna Richards, Quinn Rhodes, Hugh de la Bedoyere, Simon Eves, Clíodna Shanahan, Chris and Livvy, Paul Nixon, Tabitha Rayne, Douglas Greenshields, Tun Ewald, Jack, Laura Hunter-Thomas, and David Kreysa. You are a bunch of fucking legends.
[ENDS]
Episode 4: When your body doesn't feel sexy